Gender Politics in Tamriel

Oblivion is fantastic.  I'm having a great time playing in the new high resolution world of Tamriel, and am having a blast playing for the first time with Havok physics elements in an RPG setting.  I have high expectations for the extended game time I will spend with Oblivion, but with all that is new in Tamriel, some of the same old sexism remains.

Here is a quote from the Prima Official Game Guide for Oblivion, from the section called "Race, Sex, and Attributes" on page 6:

"Sadly, only three races offer females with power design advantages. . . In all other cases, to maximize a given race choice for its best-suited character role, pick the male.  Where the stats differ between these sexes,
the male gets the better benefit from the difference."

Now, this is a little thing in the larger scheme of game character development.  Oblivion offers many opportunities to geek-out on building your game character, and the differences between genders can be balanced out in other ways, or resolved eventually through leveling your character in specific ways.  In all likelihood, these aspects of gender inequality will have no real effect on my game-play, nor will it affect my enjoyment of the game.  Likewise, if you are someone who doesn't bother with all the small details of character choices, then these issues likely won't even present themselves in making a choice of gender with the suggested combos.

I know it isn't everyone's fantasy that there should be more gender equality but it is one of my fantasies.  It would have been a small thing for the developers to change, but knowing that my choice to play a female RPG character puts me at a disadvantage at the start of the game makes it a little less fun for me.  I'll forget about it soon enough since I will be having a great time otherwise, but for once, wouldn't it be nice to be able to start out on equal footing, if only in Tamriel?

Read my follow-up post HERE.

UPDATE: You can see a scan of the stats table from the Prima guide HERE.

Comments

[tekanji]

Between what you've said here, and what Kat has said on her blog (http://geekyfeminist.wordpress.com/2006/03/25/now-with-less-women/), I am so never buying this game. And I'm even considering avoiding the company entirely, unless I see some massive changes in the way they handle gender.

[Brinstar]

Are there other games that put female stats lower than male stats? I know Baldur's Gate II didn't discriminate on stats based upon the gender you chose for your character.

[Guilded Lily]

Tekanji -

Thanks for the link to the Geeky Feminist piece - there's some good discussion there. I will say this for Oblivion - that although there are about 100 sliders available in creating the appearance for your character, thankfully not one of them increases bust size (as in RRXX)! - GL

[Guilded Lily]

Brinstar -

I don't know of any games off the top of my head that do discriminate with female stats - I don't recall this was the case with Dungeon Siege as much as I can remember. Oblivion has a fairly complex character creation process, with more importance on the allocation of skill points than most games I have played. - GL

[Lake Desire]

I didn't realize some games gave female characters weaker stats until recently when I heard praise for games that didn't do that... the games I'd been playing all along!

[Sarah]

Arcanum gave female characters +1 constitution and -1 strength, on top of any race modifiers. Constitution is the stat that affects fatigue, used by spellcasters, so they get nudged in that direction - Technologists need a high strength to lug around all the spare parts they need, so it's that little bit more difficult to be a female technologist.

This is relatively simple to mod out of the game (edit a .dat file in notepad), but er, I have to modify part of a game to fix this in the first place?

[Sarah]

Sorry, that was utter rubbish.

I checked, and fixing this meant extracting a file from the .dat and changing the entry, and putting a copy in the right seto f directories so it overrides the default. Not so easy.

[Kat]

I didn't even know TES gave males and females different starting stats until I was deep into Morrowind. I opened the toolset to check something and found my character was disadvantaged right from the start. Just like in real life! Hmm, now that I think about it, there's actually quite a bit in Morrowind that I ignored just so I could continue enjoying the game. Like Crassius Curio. *cringe*

Interesting side note, I frequented the Bioware forums when they were developing Neverwinter Nights and a bunch of arseholes were arguing that female characters should have different stats than males. +2 charisma (cuz we have tits) and -2 intelligence (cuz we're stupid), or +2 constitution (cuz we give birth) and -2 strength (cuz we're weak), you wouldn't believe the misogynistic shit they were spewing.

[Guilded Lily]

Kat -

Shouldn't it be the males that get the -2 intelligence? - GL

[Guilded Lily]

Sarah -

I was thinking that maybe it wouldn't be too hard to make a mod of Oblivion to adjust the starting stats? - GL

[Sarah]

I don't see why not, I can't think of an RPG that hasn't been modded (except maybe Gateway to Apshai).

A caveat: I'm not much of a modder. Arcanum is ridiculously easy to modify certain things, while on the other hand changing weapon stats in Arcanum is quite difficult and requires hex editing (or if it's still up, a certain website that generates the item files). Hence my experience with fixing RPGs comes from looking at a text file and saying "What? It can't be this easy can it?" or selecting some things from menus.

I just had a bit of a look around the internet and found you can modify Morrowind's starting stats for male and female characters when creating new races, so I imagine you might be able to retool the existing races (more research is needed since I'm looking at a cached version of a page on google. for starters I'm unsure if the page is talking baout the actual editor or a third party utility). The same thing could work for Oblivion - Not exactly the best solution, but if it's possible and you're willing to fix your own version, why not?

Two questions: Does Oblivion have some variation on an override folder, and does it come with an editor of some sort?

[Guilded Lily]

Sarah -

I was expecting the Oblivion "Construction Kit" to ship with the product, but it looks like now we have to wait for it to become available as a download - but it should be an accessible modding program. I'll keep a look-out for a good modding forum and see what I can find out about changing the beginning stats. Thanks! - GL

[Guilded Lily]

Actually, the constuction kit is already availible for download HERE.

And THIS looks like a good place to start learning how to make Oblivion mods.

I will see what I can work out as soon as I have the time to have a look at this stuff. - GL

[Beider]

Actually it is really easy to do, took me 5 min to do with TES.

You can download them here

http://www.beider.org/UIMods

allfemale = both sexes use female stats

allmale = both sexes use male stats

[Guilded Lily]

Thanks Beider -

I am planning on looking at this over the weekend - I am interested in working with the modding software myself once I have a chunk on time. I am amazed at how many mods are available so quickly after the game release.- GL

[Beider]

Well a good place to start in addition to the wiki that you mentioned earlier is the forums. TES and modding forums are a good resource and people are often willing to help, but you should be prepared for some rather sexual discriminating threads. Well, not all are but there are many people requesting / makeing mods to "improve" the bodies, nude skins, etc.. etc...

I am not saying all are bad, some are actually meant just to improve the game (Like makeing the bodies more compatible with the armor types so they don't look strange or improve the faces and skins to be more detailed), while others are more the "increase bust size, take off the bra" kind.

Also you can check out #oblivionmod @ EFNet for help as well. A few people in there always willing to answer questions and help out.

(A bit of shamless commercial there)

[Ophidian]

If it matters that much to you I will make a mod in TES Oblivion to make females equal or better than the male characters. I just beat the game 2 or 3 days ago and am currently growing bored so it will give me something to do. Its really not horridly hard. FYI the TES Contruction set was accualy released 2 or 3 days BEFORE the game came out =)

Ryan

[Brinstar]

There's a nude mod for NPC women now: http://wiredblogs.tripod.com/games/index.blog?entry_id=1451603

Bethesda had already gone ahead and rendered the characters' breasts in anticipation of the mods. < sarcasm >I wonder if they did the same with the guy's bits. < /sarcasm >

[Guilded Lily]

Ryan -

I was thinking that the best way to resolve the inequality among starting stats would be to split the difference between the male and female characters. For example, the Breton males start with 40 strength and the females get 30, so make them both start at 35. This would equalize the stats without any disruption to the game balance.

What would be even better than having you make a mod for this would be if you could also explain the process - sort of like a tutorial - so that readers (me!) could also learn how this type of mod is made in the TES Construction Set. Let me know what you think.

It was PC Gamer (May issue) where I read it would be released after the game - that's the problem with magazines writing articles months ahead of time! I really thought it would come with the game itself, but there's no problem downloading it anyway. - GL

[Kat]

It's really easy, GL.

1. Start the construction set.
2. Go to File, Data, and double-click Oblivion.esm so it has a checkmark next to it. Click OK.
3. Go to Character, Race, and you'll see the stats for each race. Go down the list, typing in the new base attributes for each race. Click OK when you're done.
4. Go to File, Save, and name your plugin. Exit the construction set.
5. Start Oblivion and click Data Files. Double-click your plugin so it has a checkmark next to it. Click OK.

That's it. :)

[Guilded Lily]

Kat -

You are right, that is easy! Thanks for the help, be sure to read my newest post. - GL

[Adam LaMosca]

Very interesting. Yours and other comments on this subject prompted us at GWJ to contact Bethesda for an explanation, You can read Bethesda's official comments here:

http://www.passthepress.com/?p=251#comments

[Guilded Lily]

Adam -

Thanks very much for your post. I am so glad you contacted Bethesda on this topic - I have posted a reply of my own HERE. Thanks! - GL

[Guilded Lily]

TheDude (gunzrbad@mail.com) -

I'm sorry, but your comment has been deleted. Please see this post for an explanation, particularly entry # 1. - The GL Management.

[Guilded Lily]

Catrel Stevens (catrel.stevens@gmail.com) -

I'm sorry, but your comment has been deleted. Please see this post for an explanation, particularly entry # 3. - The GL Management.

[Pat]

There are larger things to complain/protest about in this world is there not? I see people complaining about video games here, and its not even real! Look out the darn window and pay attention to the innocent (women, children, and yes.. those horrible hairy men) that are dying in 'real life' out there for no logical reason. Maybe protesting for the lives of others would make more sense than such selfish 'i'm not being represented in a video game' pursuits. If you think you women are being horribly repressed in a video game. Try visiting a refugee camp in Africa. Try visiting a town in Iraq after its been bombarded by the U.S. See the dead women and children in person rather than ignoring it through the 'moral U.S. media filter'. Really.. video games. Its laughable. Sure equality isn't perfect in the U.S. and the Western Wold. But thats just a small fraction of the planet. The rest of the planet has no such luxury to protest about such things as they are simply trying to survive to the next day.

[Guilded Lily]

Shaodw (shadowflood@hotmail.com) -

I'm sorry, but your comment has been deleted. Please see this post for an explanation, particularly entry # 1. - The GL Management.

[Guilded Lily]

I am closing this post to any future comments. Please be sure to read the related posts HERE, HERE, and HERE. Thanks - The GL Management.