The Oblivion Equalizer

Gamers With Jobs: Press Pass has a new post up that addresses the issues of gender inequalities in Oblivion with Bethesda's Pete Hines.  Adam LaMosca, the author of the post asked Hines about the issues raised on the Guilded Lilies blog about character design stats, as well as the post by The Geeky Feminist on the representation of character races in the game manual.

Hines said that the difference in starting stats between the sexes was done to create "more choices for the player."  Please read the full post HERE.

Hines' responses to the questions make sense when the end goal is to design a game for male players alone.  The emphasis on male character artwork is explained as having been done with that in mind.  The bias exists because the game was designed with men in mind as the main audience.  The artwork bias then is the result of the larger bias, that Oblivion is not a game that women will want to play.  That bias can itself become a self-fulfilling prophecy in a cycle that goes around and around without any certainty of where it began.  Do women not want to play games like Oblivion, and so the game is designed for men, or do women not want to play games like Oblivion precisely because it is designed with only men as the target audience?  The answer really is that LOADS of women play Oblivion, so the designers should have kept that in mind when considering design elements that directly apply to gender.

I think the main issue here isn't so much what the numbers are when you start the game. I believe that men have much more fluidity when it comes to choosing the gender of their RPG characters.   I have nothing but circumstantial evidence to go on, but judging by my experiences online, men have a very high comfort level with playing female characters - I could almost go so far as saying that they prefer playing female characters.  I think it is safe to say that men are in general more comfortable with playing characters that are female than women are of playing characters that are male.   I think that for men, when facing the choices of power design advantages where the statistical advantage is something they are looking for, the gender of the character is a secondary consideration.  For women, having to choose one over the other is a choice we would rather not be forced to make.  What Hines sees in the starting stats difference as offering more choices for players may in fact translate into offering less choices for women players.

Thanks very much to Adam LaMosca for going to the source with these questions.

My final note about his post has to do with the mods offered by Beider in my original post (which GWJ offers a link to).  These mods change the stats to either all female (meaning the male is made the same as the female) or all male (vice-versa).  I have made a mod, which I have dubbed The Oblivion Equalizer, that equalizes the genders, with both having the same points (320).  You can download that mod HERE.  This mod eliminates the power design advantage, so it is no longer necessary to design a character based on statistics alone, allowing for the freedom to create an equally skilled player of either gender.

I will add that I am having a great time playing Oblivion, and the ability to mod that is offered with The Elder Scrolls Construction Set only enhances my enjoyment of the game.

Comments

[Kat]

Exactly. I also responded to Bethesda's statements on my blog here, but you said it much better than me. :)

[Brinstar]

I think that for men, when facing the choices of power design advantages where the statistical advantage is something they are looking for, the gender of the character is a secondary consideration. For women, having to choose one over the other is a choice we would rather not be forced to make.

That's exactly how I feel. I most often prefer to play characters of my gender, and if a game forces me to to play a statistically weaker female character, it would irritate the hell out of me. As you said, much of the evidence is circumstantial, but I also get the impression that for men, the gender of the character is less important than the stats if they had to make a choice. It would be easy for them to choose based upon stats, but for me -- not so easy.

[Kat]

Sheri Graner Ray talks about women not wanting to play male characters in her book Gender Inclusive Game Design: Expanding the Market. She describes the 'pyramid of power' and how people can comfortably function in levels below theirs, but not in levels above. In our society, men are above women in the pyramid so they can comfortably play a female character. Women find it much more difficult to play a male because, as the author says, "they are not familiar with the societal rules and taboos associated with the positions above their own."

It's a very interesting read and I highly recommend it.

[Guilded Lily]

Brinstar -

It may seem like a small thing to male designers, or perhaps not even register at all as an issue, but the fact that women and men approach things differently makes for different reactions to design elements in games like Oblivion. - GL

[Guilded Lily]

Kat -

I will check out the book you recommend, it sounds interesting. I am working on a post about making gender choices in RPGs, I hope to have it up in a few days. Thanks! - GL

[Marten Kai-Larsen]

First off, yes I am a male. I am 35 years old and I have never played a game that is so gender-inclusive as Oblivion where genders exists. I am pleased that you are not content but there is one part I'd like do stand up for. Gender differences, to simply state there is no gender difference odes not help equalize the gaming business. The gender differences in Oblivion are not better for male characters, they are different. I am playing as a male wood elf and I focus on non-combat feats. Had I played as a female I would have had a better character. All in all, accept the fact that men are stronger and women more intelligent, women are more socially skilled than men, not because they have tits.

There is absolutely room for improvement, such as default gender, illustrations and more but when it comes to actual gameplay I have never been so pleased with the fact that the female characters are so well defined and not stereotyped, it is obvious there had to be some women involved in development.

Please critize Oblivion for where it fails but don't fail to see where it succeeds. If you don't want gender differences, why bother having genders at all? It gives the game more depth and is truly not discrimitaing against women.

Sorry if my english is not up to standards here, I am Swedish. I am very much interrested in equality between the sexes and I might be wrong but from what I have read so far I think your barking at the wrong tree.

[Guilded Lily]

Catrel Stevens (catrel.stevens@gmail.com) -

I'm sorry, but your comment has been deleted. Please see this post for an explanation, particularly entry # 3. - The GL Management.

[Guilded Lily]

Marten -

I think that there has been a big misunderstanding about the point I am making here. I agree with you that Oblivion is a great game, and is the most gender inclusive RPG I have played. I am having the best time I have EVER had playing a RPG. I am not suggesting women avoid this game in the least.

My only objective was to point out that I was surprised that the starting stats were different between the genders, and that the one result of this was most noticeable when trying to create the most optimized character for a single class. I do not want to have to choose a male character in order to play an optimized character.

The ultimate beauty of Oblivion as a game is that it can be modded to a player's personal satisfaction, which I have done. I see the difference in starting stats as an oversight, not a deal breaker.

Thanks to the irresponsible piece on Kotaku this whole thing has been blown entirely out of proportion. I appreciate your comment, and hope you won't allow the twisted version presented by Kotaku to lead you to misread my intentions - Guilded Lily

[Marten Kai-Larsen]

Sorry Guilded Lily, some of my opinions was actually directed at The Geeky Feminist and some posters there. I do read Kotaku but I also read your blog, I have yet to read the post on Kotaku but considering their stance in general considering females in gaming I guess it is not flattering. Since I write in Swedish there is not much point in showing you my views published on a swedish site for female gamers. Thank you for your respons.

[Guilded Lily]

Marten -

I wish I could read your views, but your English is far better than my Swedish! Thanks for your comments. - GL

[Catrel Stevens]

I'm glad you addressed the deleted comments. I understand the desire to not have 3 pages worth of text scarring your comment section. However, when someone attacks an institution I care about, like gaming, (even something small as the nearly non-existant gender seperation in Oblivion) I get INVOLVED. I have recently constructed a Word Press blog, included is a post regarding the issue that I commented on here, as well as my comments in their entirety. I also included the comment that was deleted form The Geeky Feminist. Here's the link:
http://catrelstevens.wordpress.com/

[Guilded Lily]

Catrel -

I am glad you are expressing your desire to be involved in the discussion. I still think you are misreading the intention of my post by seeing it as an attack. The Kotaku piece warped it into something else, so perhaps you are responding to what you read there - but that is not what I wrote about. I made an observation on one of the structural aspects of Oblivion, described how my experienced of this game might be different from the male perspective, and then created a solution using TES CS. - GL

[Sredni Vashtar]

I don't think Catroll Stevens put much (any?) thought into his arguments. He even admits on his blog that they are basically flamebait. I am surprised that you (quite rightly) deleted his original comments but let him post a link to them, as well as those that weren't allowed on The Geeky Feminist.

[Guilded Lily]

Sredni -

If what he says is similar to the comments I deleted then I don't imagine he did put much thought into it. I haven't followed his link because I am not interested in what he has to say.

I let his comment with the link stay because I wanted him to take his perspective off of my blog, and I expected that unless I let that comment through I wouldn't hear the end of it. The link is on-topic, although nothing I'm interested in reading, so I let it stay. I do think it should be ignored like any other flamebait.

My "links in comments" policy is that it has to have something to do with what is being discussed, and cannot be shameless self promotion. Although his link verges on the latter I was happy to send him on his way. - GL

[Joanna]

Thanks for your coverage of this issue...very interesting debate! I think it is important to point out gender stereotypes and lack of inclusive design in games, just as it is important to celebrate and foreground 'better' representations... this is not complaining, but important critique, in my opinion.

[Brian West]

It seems to me that if anything, the difference in starting stats would be sexist towards men and not women, since it is a fact then men are naturally stronger then women, but is not a proven fact that women are smarter then men.

I am not saying that men are always stronger then women, I'm just saying that if your average male and average female went all out in a weightlifting competition, you know who would win. Please note that I emphasize "average". Most women with any sort of regular physical activity will obviously be able to run farther, jump higher, lift more, and excel at any other numbers of physical activities compared to myself, an overweight programmer.

If you want a purely gender-equal game, you must remove gender from the equation, because by definition, females and males are different. And really, does a game full of those angels from Dogma look like any fun?

BTW, my gmail address is my main address, so please don't delete my post.

[Guilded Lily]

Brian West -

I think you are missing my point a bit, but I have put enough energy in explaining this topic already.

I will say that the entire point of the Oblivion Equalizer mod is that it balances the starting stats so that gender no longer is an issue when it comes to leveling your character. - GL

[Brian West]

I'm not missing your point. I see that you would have liked oblivion to have equal starting stats for both sexes. Which is what you say your mod accomplished.

What I am saying is that by varying the stats between the sexes, the game is more realistic.

You said "My only objective was to point out that I was surprised that the starting stats were different between the genders"

I was trying to point out that you should not be surprised, because people are different. Its a biological fact.

If they had reduced the "potential" for characters of different races/sexes, then that would have been something to be surprised about.

I agree there needs to be more women developing games, and developing software in general. However, there is a better way to go about making games equal then making them homogeneous, and I think most women would agree with me, at least my oblivion-playing wife does.

[Guilded Lily]

Brian -

The point that you seem to be missing is that women and men experience game mechanics in different ways. You want there to be statistical differences between the genders because it reflects a sense of "reality", I want to be able to play female characters without taking a hit to the starting stats for certain class characters. The fact that you feel strongly about this further reinforces how I see that men and women approach the same game in very different ways. I have discussed this as it applies to different elements of game play in several other posts on the blog as well.

I do not suggest at any time that games should be homogonous - I am only trying to point out how gender affects experience in ways that the primarily male game development world might not foresee. One of the beauties of a game like Oblivion is that the developers provide the tools to make changes to these things. - GL

[Andre]

Hi! I was wondering if there is a Swedish manual of The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. And where can I download it?

André

[Guilded Lily]

Andre -

Try the official Elder Scrolls Forum HERE. Someone there will be able to help you out. - GL